Hayagriva dasa: Jung gave the following criticism of Sigmund Freud: "Sexuality evidently meant more to Freud than to other people. For him it was something to be religiously observed....One thing was clear; Freud, who had always made much of his irreligiosity, had now constructed a dogma, or rather, in the place of a jealous God whom he had lost, he had substituted another compelling image, that of sexuality."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. He has taken sexuality to be God. It is our natural tendency to accept a leader, and Freud abandoned the leadership of God and took up the leadership of sex. In any case, we must have leadership. That is our position. In Russia, I pointed out that there is no difference in our philosophic processes. However, whereas they accept Lenin as their leader, we accept Krsna. It is the nature of human beings to accept a leader. It is unfortunate that Freud lost God's leadership and took up instead the leadership of sex.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung concluded: "Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him. He remained unaware that his 'monotony of interpretation' expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical. So long as he refused to acknowledge that side, he could never be reconciled with himself."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that was because he was accepting the leadership of sexuality. If we accept the leadership of Krsna, our life becomes perfect. All other leadership is maya's leadership. There is no doubt that we have to accept a leader, and therefore he was constantly speaking about sex. Those who have taken God as their leader will speak only of God, nothing else.Jivera 'svarupa' haya—krsnera 'nitya-dasa' ( Caitanya-caritamrta, Madh. 20.108) According to Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy, we are all eternal servants of God, but as soon as we give up God's service, we have to accept the service of maya.

Syamasundara dasa: For Freud, the unconscious process, the id, was invariably animalistic and lawless, whereas for Jung, these unconscious energies were potentially sources of positive creative activity.

Srila Prabhupada: The subconscious state is covered by our present consciousness, and it can also be covered by Krsna consciousness. In that case, the subconscious states will no longer be able to react. For instance, the subconscious sex drive is there, but because Yamunacarya, was in Krsna consciousness, he could overcome it. The subconscious experiences, which have been gathering for life after life, which are stored, as it were, will not be able to overcome the individual if he is fully Krsna conscious.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung sees the mind as being composed of a balance of the conscious and the unconscious, or subconscious. It is the function of the personality to integrate these. For instance, if one has a strong sex drive, he can sublimate or channel that drive into creative art or religious activity.

Srila Prabhupada: That is our process. The sex impulse is natural for everyone in the material world. If we think of Krsna embracing Radharani, or dancing with the gopis, our material sex impulse is sublimated and weakened. If we hear about the pastimes of Krsna and the gopis from the right source, lusty desire within the heart will be suppressed, and we will be able to develop devotional service. What we must understand is that Krsna is the only purusa, enjoyer. If we help Him in His enjoyment, we also receive enjoyment. We are predominated, and He is the predominator. On the material platform, if a husband wants to enjoy his wife, the wife must voluntarily help him in that enjoyment. By helping him, the wife also becomes an enjoyer. The predominator, the enjoyer, is Krsna, and the predominated, the enjoyed, are the living entities. Actually, both enjoy, but one enjoys as the predominated, and the other as the predominator. When the predominated helps the predominator, that is the perfection of enjoyment. We must admit that sex desire is present in everyone, both male and female, and from an impartial point of view, it appears that the male is the enjoyer and the female the enjoyed, but if the female agrees to be enjoyed, she naturally becomes the enjoyer. All living entities are described as prakrti, female. Krsna is purusa, male. When the living entities agree to help Krsna's sex desire, they become enjoyers.

Syamasundara dasa: What is meant by Krsna's sex desire?

Srila Prabhupada: You might more correctly say "sense enjoyment." Krsna is the supreme proprietor of the senses, and when we help Krsna in His sense enjoyment, we also naturally partake of it. The sweet rasagulla is to be enjoyed, and therefore the hand takes it and puts it into the mouth so that it can be tasted and go to the stomach. It is not that the hand tries to enjoy it directly. Krsna is the only direct enjoyer; all others are indirect enjoyers. By satisfying Krsna, we also satisfy others. We cannot possibly satisfy others directly. For instance, when a wife sees her husband eating and enjoying himself, she becomes happy. Upon seeing the predominator happy, the predominated becomes happy.

Syamasundara dasa: In the individual, should the unconscious state be predominated by the conscious?

Srila Prabhupada: That is being done. Unconscious or subconscious states sometimes emerge; we are not always aware of them. But consciousness is always there. Actually, the word "unconscious" is not a good word because it implies a lack of consciousness. "Subconscious" is a better word.

Syamasundara dasa: Psychologists say that the unconscious or subconscious often acts through the conscious, but that we do not know it.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is what I am saying. The subconscious is there, but it is not always manifest. Sometimes it is suddenly manifest, just as a bubble will suddenly emerge in a pond. The energy was there within all the time, but suddenly it comes out, just like a bubble popping to the surface of the water. You may not be able to understand why it emerges, but it is assumed that it was in the subconscious state and then suddenly manifests. That subconscious state does not necessarily have any connection with our present consciousness. It is like a stored impression, a shadow, or a photograph. The mind takes many snapshots, and they are stored.

Syamasundara dasa: Does the subconscious mind think like the conscious mind?

Srila Prabhupada: No, but the impressions are there, and they may suddenly come to the surface.

Syamasundara dasa: For Jung, there are two types of subconscious states. One is the personal unconscious, consisting of those personal items stored from our individual childhood, a repressed history of stored impressions that can be aroused to consciousness in dreams and through psychoanalysis. The second is what Jung calls the collective unconscious, consisting of the collective experience of the race, archetypal images passed on from generation to generation, and common to men all over the globe.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we might even call that tradition. Of course, we emphasize parampara, which is different. Parampara means receiving proper knowledge from the Supreme. This is not something archetypal. Archetypes may change, but the knowledge received from Krsna is different. Spiritual knowledge imparted in Bhagavad-gita is not knowledge coming from tradition. Rather, we learn it from a great authority like Krsna.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung could see that the soul is always longing for light, and he wrote of the urge within the soul to rise out of primal darkness, making note of the pent-up feelings in the eyes of primitive people, and even a certain sadness in the eyes of animals, "a poignant message which speaks to us out of that existence."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, every living entity, including man, is constitutionally a servant. Therefore everyone is seeking some master, and that is our natural propensity. You can often see a puppy attempt to take shelter of some boy or man, and that is his natural tendency. He is saying, "Give me shelter. Keep me as your friend." A child or a man also wants some shelter in order to be happy. That is our constitutional position. When we attain the human form, when our consciousness is developed, we should take Krsna as our shelter and our leader. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells us that if we want shelter and guidance, we should take Him. "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender to Me." (Bg. 18.66) This is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gita.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung would say that our understanding of Krsna as the Supreme Father and the cause of all causes is an archetypal understanding that is shared by all humans. People may represent Him in different ways, but the archetype is the same.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it is exactly the same. Krsna, or God, is the Supreme Father. A father has many sons, and all men are sons of God, born of their father. This is an experience common to everyone at all times.

Syamasundara dasa: There are certain common archetypes in the dream life of all men, and even similar symbols found among the Incas of South America, or the Vaisnavas of India, or inhabitants of the Pacific Islands. Could this be due to a common ancestry in the original Vedic culture?

Srila Prabhupada: Vedic culture or no Vedic culture, there are many similarities experienced in human existence. Because we are all living beings, the similarities are there. Every living being eats, sleeps, mates, fears, and dies. These are experiences common to everyone; therefore there must be similarities in representations, or whatever.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung believes that the unconscious sometimes emerges in the form of a superiority or inferiority complex, by which we react in inhibited or arrogant fashions.

Srila Prabhupada: What are we? Inferior or superior? In Krsna consciousness, we consider ourselves servants of God. We are not guided by impulses or complexes; we are guided directly by the superior.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung states that there are two basic attitudes: extrovertive and introvertive.

Srila Prabhupada: The introvert is called a muni because he is introspective. The extrovert is generally guided by rajas, the mode of passion.

Syamasundara dasa: The personality and behavior of a living entity are determined by the interaction between the unconscious and the conscious mind.

Srila Prabhupada: Full consciousness in Sanskrit is called jagaranam. Dreaming is called svapnah, and susuptih refers to no consciousness, as in an anesthetized state.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung would call the dreaming state the unconscious also. The contents of the unconscious spill over into the conscious mind during dreams.

Srila Prabhupada: I do not like the word "unconscious" because it implies lack of consciousness. When you are anesthetized, you are unconscious. In such a state, you can be cut open and not even know it. However, when you sleep or dream, a mere pinch will awake you. As I said before, "subconscious" is a better word.

Syamasundara dasa: Both Jung and Freud used the word "unconscious" to refer to the subconscious mind that determines our personality.

Srila Prabhupada: When the living entity is in the womb of the mother, he is unconscious. Death means remaining unconscious for seven or nine months. The living entity does not die; he simply remains unconscious for that duration. That is called susuptih. When you have an operation, an anesthetic is administered, and you are unconscious for a period. When the anesthetic wears off, you emerge into the dream state. That dream state is actually a state of consciousness. When you dream, the mind works.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung believes that if we don't awaken to the many unconscious factors governing our personality, we will remain slaves to our unconscious life. The point of psychoanalysis is to reveal them to us and enable us to face them.

Srila Prabhupada: That is what we are teaching. We say that presently the soul is in an unconscious state, and we are telling the soul, "Please wake up! You are not this body!" It is possible to awaken the human being, but other living entities cannot be awakened. A tree, for instance, has consciousness, but he is so packed in matter that you cannot raise him to Krsna consciousness. Jagadish Candra Bose proved that a tree feels pain when it is cut, although this pain is very slightly manifest. A human being, on the other hand, has developed consciousness, which is manifest in different stages. Lower life forms are more or less in a dream state, or unconscious.

Hayagriva dasa: In his autobiography, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, Jung writes: "I find that all my thoughts circle around God like the planets around the sun, and are as irresistibly attracted by Him. I would feel it to be the grossest sin if I were to oppose any resistance to this force." Jung also sees all creatures as parts of God, and at the same time unique in themselves. "Like every other being," he writes, "I am a splinter of the infinite Deity...."

Srila Prabhupada: It is also our philosophy that we are part and parcel of God, just as sparks are part of a fire.

Hayagriva dasa: "It was obedience which brought me grace," he writes. "One must be utterly abandoned to God; nothing matters but fulfilling His will. Otherwise all is folly and meaningless."

Srila Prabhupada: Very good. Surrender unto God is real spiritual life. Sarva dharman parityajya (Bg. 18.66). Surrender to God means accepting that which is favorable to God and rejecting that which is unfavorable. The devotee is always convinced that God will give him all protection. He remains humble and meek, and thinks of himself as one of the members of God's family. This is real spiritual communism. Communists think, "I am a member of a certain community," but it is man's duty to think, "I am a member of God's family." God is the Supreme Father, material nature is the mother, and living entities are all sons of God.

There are living entities everywhere: on land, and in the air, and water. There is no doubt that material nature is the mother, and according to our experience, we can understand that a mother cannot produce a child without a father. It is absurd to think that a child can be born without a father. A father must be there, and the Supreme Father is God. In Krsna consciousness, a person understands that the creation is a spiritual family headed by one Supreme Father.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung writes: "According to the Bible. ..God has a personality and is the ego of the universe, just as I myself am the ego of my psychic and physical being."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, the individual is conscious of his own body, but not the bodies of others. Beside the individual soul, or consciousness in the body, there is the Paramatma, the Supersoul, the super consciousness present in everyone's heart. This is discussed in Bhagavad-gita:

ksetrajnam capi mam viddhi
sarva-ksetresu bharata
ksetra-ksetrajnayor jnanam
yat taj jnanam matam mama

"O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion. " (Bg. 13.3)

Hayagriva dasa: Recalling his difficulties in understanding God's personality, Jung writes: "Personality, after all, surely signifies character...certain specific attributes. But if God is everything, how can He still possess a distinguishable character...? Moreover, what kind of character or what kind of personality does He have? Everything depends on that, for unless one knows the answer, one cannot establish a relationship with Him."

Srila Prabhupada: God's character is transcendental, not material. He also has many attributes. For instance, He is very kind to His devotees, and this kindness may be considered one of His characteristics or attributes. He also has unlimited qualities, and sometimes He is described according to these transcendental qualities. His qualities, however, are permanent. Whatever qualities or characteristics we have are but minute manifestations of God's. God is the origin of all attributes and characteristics. As indicated in the sastras, He also has a mind, senses, feelings, sense perception, sense gratification, and everything else. Everything is there unlimitedly, and since we are part and parcel of God, we possess His qualities in minute quantities. The original qualities in God are manifest minutely in ourselves. According to the Vedas, God is a person just like us, but His personality is unlimited. Just as my consciousness is limited to this body, and His consciousness is super consciousness within everybody, so I am a person confined to this particular body, and He is the super person living within all. As Krsna tells Arjuna in Bhagavad- gita, the personality of God and that of the individual are eternally existing.

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (Bg. 2.12) Both God and the living entity are persons, but God's personality is unlimited, and the individual personality is limited. God has unlimited power, strength, influence, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation. We have limited, finite power, knowledge, influence, and so on. That is the difference between the two personalities.

Hayagriva dasa: Seeing that philosophies and theologies could not give him a clear picture of God's personality, Jung concludes: "What is wrong with these philosophers? I wondered. Evidently they know of God only by hearsay."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is also our complaint. None of the philosophers we have discussed has given us any clear idea of God. Because they are speculating, they cannot give concrete, clear information. As far as we are concerned, our understanding of God is clear because we receive the information given by God Himself to the world. Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Person by Vedic authorities; therefore we should have no reason not to accept Him as such. Narayana, Lord Siva, and Lord Brahma possess different percentages of God's attributes, but Krsna possesses all the attributes cent per cent, in totality. Rupa Gosvami has analyzed this in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, which we have translated as The Nectar of Devotion. God is a person, and if we study the attributes of man, we can also know something of God's. Just as we enjoy ourselves with friends, parents, and others, God also enjoys Himself in various relationships. There are five primary and seven secondary relationships that the living entities can have with God. Since we take pleasure in these relationships, God is described as akhila- rasamrta-sindhu, the reservoir of all pleasure. There is no need to speculate about God, or try to imagine Him. The process for understanding is described in Bhagavad-gita:

mayy asakta-manah partha
yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram mam
yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu

"Now hear, O son of Prtha, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." ( Bg. 7.1) You can learn about God by always keeping yourself under His protection, or under the protection of His representative. Then, without a doubt, you can perfectly understand God. Otherwise, there is no question of understanding Him.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung continues: "At least they (the theologians) are sure that God exists, even though they make contradictory statements about Him....God's existence does not depend on our proofs....I understand that God was, for me at least, one of the most certain and immediate of experiences."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a transcendental conviction. One may not know God, but it is very easy to understand that God is there. We have to learn about God's nature, but there is no doubt that God is there. Any sane man can understand that he is being controlled. So, who is that controller? The supreme controller is God. This is the conclusion of a sane man. Jung is right when he says that God's existence does not depend on our proof.

Hayagriva dasa: Recalling his early spiritual quests, Jung writes: "In my darkness...I could have wished for nothing better than a real, live guru, someone possessing superior knowledge and ability, who would have disentangled from me the involuntary creations of my imagination...."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, according to Vedic instructions, we must have a guru in order to acquire perfect knowledge.

tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panihsrotriyam brahma-nistham

"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth." (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) The guru must factually be a representative of God. He must have seen and experienced God in fact, not simply in theory. We have to approach such a guru, and by service, surrender, and sincere inquiry, we can come to understand what is God. The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship; otherwise, he may speculate for millions and millions of years. Bhaktya mam abhijanati. "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service." (Bg. 18.55) This process of bhakti includes sravanam kirtanam visnoh, hearing and chanting about Lord Visnu and always remembering Him. Satatam kirtayanto mam (Bg. 9.14). The devotee is always glorifying the Lord. Srimad-Bhagavatam says:

naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaranyas
tvad-virya-gayana-mahamrta-magna-cittah
soce tato vimukha-cetasa indriyartha-
maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan

"O best of the great personalities, I am not at all afraid of material existence, for wherever I stay I am fully absorbed in thoughts of Your glories and activities. My concern is only for the fools and rascals who are making elaborate plans for material happiness and maintaining their families, societies, and countries. I am simply concerned with love for them." (Bhag. 7.9.43) The devotee's consciousness is always immersed in the ocean of the pastimes and unlimited activities of the Supreme Lord. That is transcendental bliss. The spiritual master trains his disciple to remain always in the ocean of God consciousness. One who works under the directions of the acarya knows everything about God.

Hayagriva dasa: When in Calcutta in 1938, Jung met some celebrated gurus, but generally avoided so-called holymen. "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth," he writes, "not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own."

Srila Prabhupada: On the one hand, he says he wants a guru, and then on the other, he doesn't want to accept one. Doubtless, there are many cheating gurus in Calcutta, and Jung might have seen some bogus gurus he did not like. In any case, the principle of accepting a guru cannot be avoided. It is absolutely necessary.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning consciousness after death, Jung feels that the individual must pick up the level of consciousness which he left.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and therefore according to that consciousness, we have to accept a body. That is the process of the soul's transmigration. An ordinary person can see only the gross material body, but accompanying this body is the mind, intelligence, and ego. When the body is finished, these remain, although they cannot be seen. A foolish man thinks that everything is finished at death, but the soul carries the mind, intelligence, and ego—that is, the subtle body—with it into another body. This is confirmed by Bhagavad-gita: na hanyate hanyamane sarire. "He is not slain when the body is slain." (Bg. 2.20)

Hayagriva dasa: Jung believes that individual consciousness cannot supersede world consciousness. He writes: "If there were to be a conscious existence after death, it would, so it seems to me, have to continue on the level of consciousness attained by humanity, which in any age has an upper thought variable limit."

Srila Prabhupada: It is clearly explained in Bhagavad-gita that although the body is destroyed, the consciousness continues. According to one's consciousness, he acquires another body, and again in that body, the consciousness begins to mold its future lives. If a person were a devotee in his past life, he would again become a devotee after his death. Once the material body is destroyed, the same consciousness begins to work in another body. Consequently, we find that some people quickly accept Krsna consciousness, whereas others take a longer time. Bahunam janmanam ante (Bg. 7.19) This indicates that the consciousness is continuing, although the body is changing. Bharata Maharaja, for instance, changed many bodies, but his consciousness continued, and he remained fully Krsna conscious. We may see a person daily, but we cannot visualize his intelligence. We can understand that a person is intelligent, but we cannot see intelligence itself. When one talks, we can understand that there is intelligence at work. When the gross body is dead and no longer capable of talking, why should we conclude that the intelligence is finished? The instrument for speech is the gross body, but when the body is finished, we should not conclude that consciousness and intelligence are finished. After the destruction of the gross body, the mind and intelligence continue. Because they require a body to function, they develop a body, and that is the process of the soul's transmigration.

Hayagriva dasa: Still, what of Jung's contention that the individual's level of consciousness cannot supersede whatever knowledge is available on this planet?

Srila Prabhupada: No, it can supersede, provided we acquire knowledge from authority. You may not have seen India, but a person who has seen India can describe it to you. We may not be able to see Krsna, but we can learn of Him from an authority who knows. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna that there is an eternal nature:

paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo
'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanah
yah sa sarvesu bhutesu
nasyatsu na vinasyati

"Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." (Bg. 8.20). On this earth, we encounter temporary nature. Here, things take birth, remain for some time, change, grow old, and are finally destroyed. There is dissolution in this material world, but there is another world in which there is no dissolution. We have no personal experience of this other world, but we can understand that it exists when we receive information from authority. It is not necessary to know it by personal experience. Paroksaparoksa. There are different stages of knowledge, and not all knowledge can be acquired by direct perception. That is not possible.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung believed in the importance of consciousness elevation. He writes: "Only here, in life on earth, can the general level of consciousness be raised. That seems to be man's metaphysical task...."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, our consciousness should be developed. As stated in Bhagavad- gita:

prapya punya-krtam lokan
usitva sasvatih samah
sucinamsrimatam gehe
yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate

athava yoginam eva
kule bhavati dhimatam
etaddhi durlabhataram
loke janma yad idrsam

tatra tam buddhi-samyogam
labhate paurva-dehikam
yatate ca tato bhuyah
samsiddhau kuru-nandana

"The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy. Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world. On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success." (Bg. 6.41-43)

So if one's yoga practice is incomplete, or if he dies prematurely, his consciousness accompanies him, and in the next life, he begins at the point where he left off. His intelligence is revived. In an ordinary class, we can see that some students learn very quickly, while others cannot understand. This is evidence for the continuation of consciousness. If a person is extraordinarily intelligent, his previously developed consciousness is being revived. The fact that we have undergone previous births is also evidence for the immortality of the soul.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung speaks of the paradox of death: from the point of view of the ego, death is a horrible catastrophe, "a fearful piece of brutality." Yet from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is "...a joyful event. In the light of eternity, it is a wedding."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, death is horrible for one who is going to accept a lower form of life, and it is a pleasure for the devotee, because he is returning home, back to Godhead.

Hayagriva dasa: Death is not always a joyful event for the soul?

Srila Prabhupada: No. How can it be? If one has not developed his spiritual consciousness, death is very horrible. The tendency in this life is to become very proud, and often people think, "I don't care for God. I am independent." Crazy people talk in this way, but after death, they have to accept a body according to the dictations of nature. Nature says, "My dear sir, since you have worked like a dog, you can become a dog. Since you have been surfing in the sea, you can now become a fish." These bodies are awarded according to a superior order.

karmana daiva-netrena
jantur dehopapattaye
striyah pravista udaram
pumso retah-kanasrayah

"Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semina and to assume a particular type of body." (Bhag. 3.31.1) When we are in touch with the modes of material nature, we are creating our next body. How can we stop this process? This is nature's way. If we are infected by some disease, we will necessarily get that disease. There are three modes of material nature—tamo-guna, rajo-guna, and sattva-guna—and our bodies are acquired according to our association with them. As far as the unsuccessful yogi is concerned, he is given a chance to revive his spiritual consciousness in his next life. In general, the human form affords us a chance to make progress in Krsna consciousness, especially when we are born in an aristocratic, brahmana, or Vaisnava family.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning samsara, Jung writes: "The succession of birth and death is viewed [in Indian philosophy] as an endless continuity, as an eternal wheel rolling on forever without a goal. Man lives and attains knowledge and dies and begins again from the beginning. Only with the Buddha does the idea of a goal emerge, namely, the overcoming of earthly existence."

Srila Prabhupada: Overcoming earthly existence means entering into the spiritual world. The spirit soul is eternal, and it can pass from this atmosphere into another. That is clearly explained in Bhagavad-gita:

janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg. 4.9) Those who continue to revolve in the cycle of birth and death require another material body, but those who are Krsna conscious go to Krsna. They do not acquire another material body. Those who are not envious of Krsna accept His instructions, surrender unto Him, and understand Him. For them, this is the last material birth. For those who are envious, however, transmigration is continuous.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning karma, Jung writes: "The crucial question is whether a man's karma is personal or not. If it is, then the preordained destiny with which a man enters life presents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."

Srila Prabhupada: Karma is always personal.

Hayagriva dasa: When Buddha was asked whether karma is personal or not, he avoided answering. He said that knowing this would not contribute to liberation from the illusion of existence.

Srila Prabhupada: Buddha refused to answer because he did not teach about the soul or accept the personal soul. As soon as you deny the personal aspect of the soul, there is no question of a personal karma. Buddha wanted to avoid this question. He did not want his whole philosophy dismantled.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung asks, "Have I lived before in the past as a specific personality, and did I progress so far in that life that I am now able to seek a solution?"

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung admits that he doesn't know.

Srila Prabhupada: That is explained in Bhagavad-gita:

tatra tam buddhi-samyogam
labhate paurva-dehikam
yatate ca tato bhuyah
samsiddhau kuru-nandana

"On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he again tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru." (Bg. 6.43)

Hayagriva dasa: "I could well imagine that I might have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer," Jung writes. "I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me."

Srila Prabhupada: That is a fact.

Hayagriva dasa: "When I die, my deeds will follow along with me—that is how I imagine it."

Srila Prabhupada: That is personal karma.

Hayagriva dasa: "I will bring with me what I have done," Jung concludes. "In the meantime it is important to insure that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."

Srila Prabhupada: If you are making regular progress in Krsna consciousness, your hands will not be empty at the end. Completeness means returning home, back to Godhead. This return is not empty. Because the Mayavadis cannot understand the positivity of God's kingdom, they try to make it empty. Eternal life with Krsna is our aspiration. A Vaisnava does not want emptiness. Since materialists are thinking that everything will be empty at the end of life, they conclude that they should enjoy themselves now as much as possible. Therefore sense enjoyment is at the core of material life, and materialists are mad after it.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung believes that we are reborn because we relapse again into desires, feeling that something remains to be completed. "In my case," he writes, "it must have been primarily a passionate urge toward understanding....for that was the strongest element in my nature. "

Srila Prabhupada: That understanding for which he is longing is understanding of Krsna. That is explained in Bhagavad-gita:

bahunam janmanam ante
jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma sudurlabhah

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." (Bg. 7.19) Our understanding is complete when we come to the point of understanding Krsna. Then our material journey comes to an end. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so'rjuna. "Upon leaving the body, he does not take birth again into this material world, but attains My eternal abode." (Bg. 4.9) Lord Krsna Himself gives instructions by which He can be understood.

mayy asakta-manah partha
yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram mam
yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu

"Now hear, O son of Prtha, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." ( Bg. 7.1) If we can understand Krsna completely, we will take our next birth in the spiritual world.

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning scripture, Jung writes: "The word of God comes to us, and we have no way of distinguishing to what extent it is different from God."

Srila Prabhupada: The word of God is not at all different from God. Since God is absolute, both He and His words are the same. God's name and God are the same. God's pastimes and God are the same. God's Deity and God are the same. Anything related to God is God. For instance, Bhagavad-gita is God. Maya tatam idam sarvam ( Bg. 9.4). Everything is God, and when we are complete in God realization, we can understand this. Otherwise we cannot. Everything is God, and without God, nothing can exist.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung conceived of the false ego in terms of persona. "The persona" he writes, "is the individual's system of adaptation to, or the manner he assumes in dealing with, the world....The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is.

Srila Prabhupada: Our real persona is that we are eternal servants of God. When we realize this, our persona becomes our salvation and perfection. The person must be there, but as long as we are in the material world, our persona identifies with our family, community, body, nation, ideal, and so on. The person is there and must continue, but proper understanding is realizing that we are eternal servants of Krsna. As long as we are in the material world, we labor under the delusion of the false ego, thinking, "I am American. I am Russian. I am Hindu, etc." This is false ego at work. In reality, we are all servants of God. When we speak of false ego, we also admit a real ego, a purified ego, who understands that he is the servant of Krsna.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung envisioned the self as a personality composed of the conscious and also the subconscious. He writes: 'The self is not only the center but also the whole circumference which embraces both conscious and unconscious."

Srila Prabhupada: Everything depends on the personality, and it is the personality that is surrounded by so many conceptions. In conditional life, we may have many different types of dreams, but when we are purified—like Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu—we dream of Krsna's pastimes. In the purified state, we dream about Krsna and His activities and instructions.

Hayagriva dasa: Although the self can never be fully known by the individual, it does have individuality.

Srila Prabhupada: We can know that we are individual persons with our own ideas and activities. The problem is purifying our ideas and activities. When we understand our role as servants of Krsna, we are purified.

Syamasundara dasa: For Jung, the purpose of psychoanalysis is to come to grips with our unconscious shadow personality in order to know completely who we are.

Srila Prabhupada: That means attaining real knowledge. When Sanatana Gosvami approached Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he said, "Please reveal to me who and what I am." In order to understand our real identity, we require the assistance of a guru.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung says that in the shadow personality of all males, there is a bit of the female, and in all females there is a bit of the male. Because we repress these aspects of the shadow personality, we do not understand our actions.

Srila Prabhupada: We say that every living entity is by nature a female, prakrti. Prakrti means female, and purusa means male. In this material world, although we are prakrti, we are posing ourselves as purusa. Because the jivatma, the individual soul, has the propensity to enjoy as a male, he is sometimes described as purusa, but actually the jivatma is not purusa. He is prakrti. As I said before, prakrti means dominated, and purusa means predominator. The only predominator is Krsna; therefore originally we are all female by constitution.

Syamasundara dasa: In the male species, at any rate, the temperament is different, isn't it? There is dominance and aggression.

Srila Prabhupada: There is no different temperament. We can see that the female also has the same temperament because she wants to be treated equally, just like a man. In any case, the real position is that every living entity is originally female, but under illusion he attempts to become a male, an enjoyer. This is called maya. Although a female by constitution, the living entity is trying to imitate the supreme male, Krsna. When we come to our original consciousness, we understand that we are not the predominator but the predominated.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung noticed male and female characteristics reflected in nature. For instance, a mountain may be considered male because it is strong and dominant, whereas the sea is female because it is passive and is the womb of life.

Srila Prabhupada: These are all mental concoctions. They have no real scientific value. You may imagine things like this, but the real identity of these things is different. Life is not generated from the ocean; rather, everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Visnu, who lies in the causal ocean. If I am lying on this bed, and something emanates from my breathing, does this mean that something is emanating from the bed?

Syamasundara dasa: But aren't there specific male and female characteristics?

Srila Prabhupada: The only male is God. Male means enjoyer, and female means enjoyed. But for God, no one is the enjoyer. Therefore He is the only male.

Syamasundara dasa: Then is it false to think of anything as masculine besides God?

Srila Prabhupada: Masculine is different. We speak of the masculine gender. The linga is the symbol of masculinity in the material body. In Bengali, it is said that one can tell if an animal is male or female simply by raising its tail. But these are material considerations. The real male is Krsna.

Syamasundara dasa: But couldn't you refer to the ocean as "mother ocean"?

Srila Prabhupada: You may in the sense that the ocean contains so many living entities, just as the female contains a child within her womb. Or you may speak of a mountain as being male because of its strength and durability. In that sense, you may make these comparisons, but you should not think that these are the real identities of these things.

Syamasundara dasa: For Jung, the soul, or self, is the center of organization within the personality, and seeks a harmonious balance between the conscious and the unconscious.

Srila Prabhupada: When we speak of personality, we must admit the existence of the soul. Because you are a living entity, you have a separate identity called personality. Unless there is an individual soul, there is no possibility of personality.

Syamasundara dasa: Jung said that the self is rarely completely balanced. But don't we say that the self is always stable?

Srila Prabhupada: No, when the self is under the influence of maya, he is not balanced. He is imbalanced and ignorant. His true consciousness is covered. When rain falls from the sky, it is clear, but as soon as it touches the earth, it becomes muddy. Originally, the soul's consciousness is clear, but when it comes in contact with the three modes of material nature, it is muddied.

Hayagriva dasa: "If the soul is anything," Jung writes, "it must be of unimaginable complexity and diversity, so that it cannot possibly be approached through a mere psychology of instinct."

Srila Prabhupada: According to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, we can understand the soul through training. By negation, we can understand, "I am not this, I am not that." Then we can come to understand.

naham vipro na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo na sudro
naham varni na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir va
kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher
gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

"I am not a brahmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a vaisya or a sudra. Nor am I a brahmacari, a householder, a vanaprastha, or a sannyasi. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He is always existing with brilliance." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madh. 13.80) That is our real identification. As long as we do not identify ourselves as eternal servants of Krsna, we will be subject to various false identifications. Bhakti, devotional service, is the means by which we can be purified of false identification.

Hayagriva dasa: "I can only gaze with wonder and awe at the depths and heights of our psychic nature," Jung writes. "Its non-spatial universe conceals an untold abundance of images which have accumulated over millions of years of living development and become fixed in the organism."

Srila Prabhupada: Since we are constantly changing bodies, constantly undergoing transmigration, we are accumulating various experiences. However, if we remain fixed in Krsna consciousness, we do not change. There is none of this fluctuation once we understand our real identification, which is, "I am the servant of Krsna, and my duty is to serve Him." Arjuna realized this after hearing Bhagavad-gita, and he told Sri Krsna:

nasto mohah smrtir labdha
tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehah
karisye vacanam tava

"My dear Krsna, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." (Bg. 18.73) So after hearing Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna comes to this conclusion, and his illusion is dispelled by Krsna's mercy. Arjuna is then fixed in his original position. And what is this? Karisye vacanamtava. "Whatever you say, I will do." At the beginning of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna told Arjuna to fight, and Arjuna refused. At the conclusion, Arjuna's illusion is dispelled, and he is situated in his original constitutional position. Thus our perfection lies in executing the orders of Krsna.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung classifies five types of rebirth. One is metempsychosis, by which "...one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences; or, from another point of view, it is a life-sequence interrupted by different reincarnations....It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not: there may be only a continuity of karma."

Srila Prabhupada: A personality is always there, and bodily changes do not affect it. However, one identifies himself according to his body. When the soul, for instance, is within the body of a dog, he thinks according to that particular bodily conception. He thinks, "I am a dog, and I have my particular duty." In human society, when one is born in America, for instance, he thinks, "I am an American, and I have my duty." According to the body, the personality is manifest, but in all cases, personality is there.

Hayagriva dasa: But is this personality continuous?

Srila Prabhupada: Certainly the personality is continuous. At death, the same soul passes into another gross body, along with its mental and intellectual identifications. The individual acquires different types of bodies, but the person is the same.

Hayagriva dasa: This would correspond to what Jung calls reincarnation, the second type of rebirth: "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality," he writes. "Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born, one is able, at least potentially, to remember that he has lived through previous existences and that these existences were one's own, i.e., that they had the same ego-form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."

Srila Prabhupada: Not necessarily into a human body. From Srimad-Bhagavatam, we learn that Bharata Maharaja became a deer in his next life, and after being a deer, he became a brahmana. The soul is changing bodies just as a man changes his dress. The man is the same, although his dress may be different.

vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya
navani grhnati naro 'parani
tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany
anyani samyati navani dehi

"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." ( Bg. 2.22) When a dress is old and cannot be used anymore, one has to exchange it for another. In a sense, you purchase a new dress with the money, or karma, you have accumulated in your life. The man is the same, but his dress is supplied according to the price he can pay. According to your karma, you receive a certain type of body.

Hayagriva dasa: For Jung, the third type of rebirth, called resurrection, may be of two types: "It may be a carnal body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is, according to Christian doctrine, at the end of the world, the gross bodies will reassemble themselves and ascend into heaven, or descend into hell.

Srila Prabhupada: And what will the person do in the meantime?

Hayagriva dasa: I don't know. Obviously the material elements disperse.

Srila Prabhupada: The material body is finished, but the spiritual body is always there. This type of resurrection talked about is applicable to God and His representatives, not to all. In this case, it is not a material body, but a spiritual one. When God appears, He appears in a spiritual body, and this body does not change. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that He spoke to the sun god millions of years ago, and Arjuna questioned how this could be possible. Krsna replies that although Arjuna had been present, he could not remember. Remembrance is possible only if one does not change bodies. Changing bodies means forgetting.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung admits that on a higher level, the process is not material. "It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus gloriaficationis, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility."

Srila Prabhupada: This is the spiritual body, which never changes. According to the Mayavadi conception, the Absolute Truth is impersonal, and when He comes as a person, He accepts a material body. Those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge, who accept the Bhagavad-gita, understand that this is not the case.

avajananti mam mudha
manusim tanum asritam
param bhavam ajananto
mama bhuta-mahesvaram

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." ( Bg. 9.11) Because Krsna appears like a human being, the unintelligent think that He is nothing but a human being. They have no knowledge of the spiritual body.

Hayagriva dasa: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovatio, and this refers to "the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being." As an example, Jung cites the ascension of Christ into heaven.

Srila Prabhupada: We say that the spiritual body never dies, and the material body is subject to destruction. Nayam hanti na hanyate (Bg. 2.19). After the material body's destruction, the "spiritual body is still there. It is neither generated nor killed.

Hayagriva dasa: But aren't there examples of a kind of ascension into heaven? Didn't Arjuna ascend?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and Yudhisthira. There are many instances. The special instance is Krsna Himself and His associates. But we should never consider their bodies material. They didn't go through death of any sort, although their bodies traveled to the higher universe. But it is also a fact that everyone possesses a spiritual body.

Hayagriva dasa: The fifth type of rebirth is indirect, like an initiation ceremony, or the twice-born ceremony of transformation. "Through his presence at the rite, the individual participates in divine grace."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, one's first birth is by his father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. When one takes his second birth, he comes to understand that he is not the material body. That is spiritual education. That birth of knowledge, or birth into knowledge, is called dvijah.

Hayagriva dasa: In one of his last books, The Undiscovered Self, Jung writes: "The meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) or to the path of salvation and liberation (Buddhism). From this basic fact all ethics is derived, which without the individual's responsibility before God can be called nothing more than conventional morality."

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we understand from Bhagavad-gita that no one can approach God without being purified of all sinful reactions. Only one who is standing on the platform of pure goodness can understand God and engage in His service. From Arjuna, we understand that God is param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan (Bg. 10.12). He is the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier. Param-brahma indicates the Supreme Brahman. Every living being is Brahman spiritually, but Krsna is the Param-brahma, the Supreme Brahman. He is also param-dhama, the ultimate abode of everything. And pavitram paramam, the purest of the pure. In order to approach the purest of the pure, one must become completely pure, and to this end, morality and ethics are necessary. Therefore in our Krsna consciousness movement, we prohibit illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling, the four pillars of sinful life. If we can avoid these, we can remain on the platform of purity. Krsna consciousness is based on this morality, and one who cannot follow these principles falls down from the spiritual platform. Purity is the basic principle of God consciousness, and is essential for the reestablishment of our eternal relationship with God.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes: "The state has taken the place of God; that is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I agree with him. Atheistic Communism has contributed to the degradation of human civilization. The Communists supposedly believe in the equal distribution of wealth. According to our understanding, God is the Father, material nature the mother, and living entities the sons. The sons have a right to live at the cost of the father. The entire universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and living entities are being supported by the Supreme Father.

However, we should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to us. According to Isopanisad, tena tyaktena bhunjitha ( Isopanisad 1). We should be satisfied with our allocation, and not envy another or encroach upon his property. We should not envy the capitalists or the wealthy because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore everyone should be satisfied with what he receives. On the other hand, no one should exploit others. One may be born in a wealthy family, but he should not interfere with the rights of others. Whether one is rich or poor, he should be God conscious, accept God's arrangement, and serve God to his fullest. This is the philosophy of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and it is confirmed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We should be content with our allocations from God, and concern ourselves with advancing in Krsna consciousness. If we become envious of the rich, we will be tempted to encroach upon their allotment, and in this way we are diverted from our service to the Lord. The main point is that everyone, rich or poor, should engage in God's service. If everyone does so, there will be real peace in the world.

Hayagriva dasa: In the socialist state, the goals of religion are turned into worldly promises of bread, "the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours."

Srila Prabhupada: This is because they have no understanding of spiritual life, nor can they understand that the person within the body is eternal and spiritual. Therefore they recommend immediate sense gratification.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung believed, however, that Marxism cannot possibly replace religion. "A natural function which has existed from the beginning... cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."

Srila Prabhupada: The Communists are concerned with adjusting material things that can never be adjusted. They imagine that they can solve problems, but ultimately their plans will fail. The Communists do not understand what religion is. It is not possible to avoid religion. Everything has a particular characteristic. Salt is salty, sugar is sweet, and chili is hot and pungent. These are intrinsic characteristics. Similarly, the living entity has an intrinsic quality. His characteristic is to render service, be he a Communist, a theist, a capitalist, or whatever. In all countries, people are working and rendering service to their respective governments—be they capitalists or Communists—and the people are not profiting. Therefore we say that if people follow the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by serving Krsna, they will be happy. In the material world, people are rendering service, and they are not happy doing so because their service is actually meant for Krsna. Therefore, for the sake of happiness, people should individually and collectively render service to Krsna. When that service is misplaced, we are never happy. Both Communists and capitalists are saying, "Render service to me," but Krsna says, sarva- dharman parityajya (Bg. 18.66). "Just render Me service, and I will free you from all sinful reactions."

Hayagriva dasa: Jung feels that materialistic capitalism cannot possibly defeat a pseudo-religion like Marxism. The only solution is to adopt a nonmaterialistic religion. "The antidote should in this case be an equally potent faith of a different and nonmaterialistic kind...."

Srila Prabhupada: That religion is this Krsna consciousness movement. Krsna has nothing to do with any materialistic "ism," and this movement is directly connected with Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God demands complete surrender, and we are teaching, "You are servants, but your service is being wrongly placed. Therefore you are not happy. Just render service to Krsna, and you will find happiness." We neither support Communism nor capitalism, nor do we advocate the adoption of pseudo religions. We are for Krsna only.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung laments the absence of a potent nonmaterialistic faith in the West that "could block the progress of a fanatical ideology" like Marxism. He sees mankind as desperately in need of a religion that has immediate meaning.

Srila Prabhupada: That nonmaterial religion which is above everything—Marxism and capitalism—is this Krsna consciousness movement. If we cultivate Krsna consciousness, we will transcend sinful reactions and make spiritual progress. Janma karma ca me divyam (Bg. 4.9). Krsna says that just by knowing of His transcendental appearance and pastimes, we will not take birth in this material world again.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung writes: "It is unfortunately only too clear that if the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption."

Srila Prabhupada: True, the basis of change is the individual. Now there are a few disciples individually initiated into Krsna consciousness, and if a large percentage can thus become invigorated, the face of the world will change. There is no doubt of this.

Hayagriva dasa: For Jung, the salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. "His individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, those who seriously take to Krsna consciousness are never troubled by Marxism, this-ism, or that-ism. A Marxist may take to Krsna consciousness, but a Krsna conscious devotee would never become a Marxist. That is not possible. It is explained in Bhagavad-gita that when one knows the highest perfection of life, he cannot be misled by a third or fourth-class philosophy.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung also felt that materialistic progress could be a possible enemy to the individual. "A favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside," he writes, "even that metamorphosis which external reality cannot provide, mainly, a deep-seated change of the inner man...."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes everything originates from inside, from the soul. It is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura and others that material progress is essentially an expansion of the external energy, maya, illusion. We are all living in illusion, and so-called scientists and philosophers cannot even understand God and their relationship to Him, despite their material advancement. Material advancement and knowledge are actually hindrances to the progressive march of Krsna consciousness. To live a saintly life, we minimize our necessities. We are not after luxurious living. We feel that life is meant for spiritual progress and Krsna consciousness, not for material advancement.

Hayagriva dasa: To inspire this deep-seated change in the inner man, Jung feels that a proper teacher is needed, someone to explain religion.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, according to the Vedic injunction, it is essential to seek out a guru, who, by definition, is a representative of God. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair ( Sri Gurv-astaka 7). The representative of God is worshipped as God, but he never says, "I am God." Although he is worshipped as God, he is the servant of God. God Himself is always master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu requested everyone to become a guru. "Whatever you are, it doesn't matter. Simply become a guru and deliver all these people who are in ignorance." One may say, "I am not very learned. How can I become a guru?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that it is not necessary to be a learned scholar, for there are many so-called learned scholars who are fools. It is only necessary to impart Krsna's instructions, which are already there in Bhagavad- gita. Whoever explains Bhagavad-gita as it is is a guru by definition. If one is fortunate enough to approach such a guru, his life becomes successful.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung points out that "our philosophy is no longer a way of life, as it was in antiquity; it has turned into an exclusively intellectual and academic affair."

Srila Prabhupada: That is also our opinion. Mental speculation has no value in itself. We must be directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, using all reason, assimilate the instructions given by Him. We can then follow these instructions in our daily life and do good to others by teaching Bhagavad-gita.

Hayagriva dasa: He sees on the one hand an exclusively intellectual philosophy, and on the other, denominational religions with "archaic rites and conceptions," which have "become strange and unintelligible to the man of today...."

Srila Prabhupada: That is because preachers of religion are simply dogmatic. They have no clear idea of God; they make only official proclamations. When one does not understand, he cannot make others understand. But there is no such vanity in Krsna consciousness, which is clear in every respect. This is the expected movement Mr. Jung wanted. Every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.

Hayagriva dasa: He describes the truly religious man as one "who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end."

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the natural situation. What decisions can we make? Since there is already a controller over us, how can we be absolute? Everyone should depend on the supreme controller and fully surrender to Him.

Hayagriva dasa: Jung feels that modern man should ask himself, "Have I any religious experience and immediate relation to God, and hence that certainty which will keep me, as an individual, from dissolving in the crowd?" Our relationship with God ultimately assures our own individuality.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, all living entities are individuals, and God is the supreme individual. According to the Vedic version, all individuals are subordinate to Him. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha- upanisad 2.2.13). The supreme individual is one, and the subordinate are many. The supreme individual is maintaining His subordinates, just as a father maintains his family. When the children learn to enjoy their father's property without encroaching upon one another, accepting what is allotted them, they will attain peace.

Hayagriva dasa: That ends our session on Jung.

So far, he seems the most sensible.